History of messy. Within tribes there have almost always arisen rival clans vying for leadership. When tribal groups settle in one place, control over land becomes an important component of power within the tribe. Hierarchy eventually appears, and with hierarchy claims by the elite to a larger and larger share of what is produced. The result is an economy of scarcity, and scarcity within the group leads to efforts to take what is needed and desired from others. The people whose heritage goes back to the ancient tribes of Israel are subject to the same internal socio-political dynamics. And, yes, your observation about Jewish people coming from Europe (where they had generations of exposure to embrace the aggressive cultures of European tribes is valid. I have many "Jewish" friends. Some are not particularly political, as is the case with most Americans. Others are very committed to either a progressive, conservative or libertarian ideology. The same can be said for members of my own family. And, my father was something of a racist, although he was quiet about his racial views.
"The people whose heritage goes back to the ancient tribes of Israel are subject to the same internal socio-political dynamics." Who are you talking about here specifically, Ed? Because if you're talking about Ashkenazi Jews, that "heritage going back to the ancient tribes of Israel" is at least arguably mythological. These people are Polish in many if not most cases. Wouldn't they more properly be returning to their "homeland" in Poland?. Or are you justifying their biblical claims based on the deed of ownership by "Jahweh?" Couldn't I just as easily say that "Yahweh" or "Ooga-booga" or "the flying spaghetti monster" gave me Palm Springs, go shoot everyone and welcome all who acknowledge "yahweh" or whomever? Could be just me, but your rationale seems a bit opaqiue.
In the case of Israel, my position is I think crystal clear. Europeanized Zionist Jewry are occupiers. They committed both individual and mass murder and expropriation in order to seize the land inside the 1967 borders of "Israel," created a language, and established an occupation of the remaining land of Palestine while creating a second class citizenship ship of indigenous Arabs (whether Christian or Muslim) who remained within the newly created borders. [ see Folke Bernadotte, King David Hotel Bombing, c. 1948 Nakba etc) Now they are taking the REST of the biblical deeded land. You do realize that the West bank is being overrun by Zionist settlers aided by the IDF, right? Am I mistaken in any of this?
Those of Jewish identify who decided to leave Europe after the Second World War held their own views about who within the European Jewish communities were the elite and who were not. They obviously looked upon the Jews of Palestine as less than capable of leadership in the new state of Israel. As you correctly note, the elites coming from Europe came with determination to establish a Jewish-only nation-state. The victory in 1967 both provided the rationale and the opportunity to expand the border and push the Arab people out. The conflict began with the Balfour Declaration, and every action thereafter by the British set the stage for what has occurred.
My view is that no group of people has any greater claim to any part of the planet than any other group. This moral position is in direct conflict with how the world has been carved up into nation-states claiming sovereign control and arming to defend what they have taken and often using force to take more. In this sense, the European Zionists are no different than any other tribal group. One might have thought they would have a greater respect for human rights because of what happened to so many of their family members during the Second World War. That is too much to expect from people who believe they have some special claim to some part of the planet and who look upon others occupying that territory as usurpers and even uncivilized, thus not protected by any universal moral law. It is up to the international community to find the moral courage to bring the Israeli political and military leadership to trial for their crimes committed against humanity. The same issues face the international community all around the globe. Problem is, there are very few governments who can legitimately claim the high moral ground. The U.S. has its own unresolved history of crimes against humanity.
Over a life-long study of and writing about human history I came to the conclusion that we humans remain instinctively tribal in our primary associations. Migration generates conflict but a degree of assimilation (provided the migrating group abandons most of its own cultural norms in favor of the norms of the majority tribe). The experience of many minority groups who come into another tribal group and whose children are immersed into the majority culture reveals there is a lingering distrust or worse that continues on thru generations, even when there is inter-marriage. Remember that in the United States, the White tribe categorized any person with even a very small percentage of Black ancestry as Black. Very, very slowly, those Blacks who embrace White cultural norms gained acceptance into the White tribe, remembering that it also took generations before Whites who came to the United States from Ireland (and who practiced Catholicism) or from countries where English was not their spoken language experienced and still experience a degree of ethnic isolation from "the mainstream culture." The historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. wrote about this issue, concerned that the pluralism he viewed as constructive was being replaced by a destructive trend toward multiculturalism.
The above is just a prelude to the observation that wherever tribes are competing for sovereignty over the same territory and resources, the competition will inevitably involve unrelenting violence. Remember what happened after Tito's regime fell and the ethnic groups were no longer constrained by the police powers of state socialism. All around globe these tribal conflicts have been ongoing for centuries. The difference today is the expanded capacity to kill large numbers of people from a distance.
As I write this, I wonder how much time we have before the regional wars now being fought explode into global war.
1). I follow your line of thought. Are you saying that "tribes fight and it might turn into world conflagration?" If so, I agree on the conflagration part but I don't see Zionism as tribal. MOST Israeli are European and have no (or miniscule) biological connection to the indigenous people of the region. That's because Judaism is neither a race nor an ethnicity. Neither Bibi Netanyahu nor any of his cabinet are Semites. Ironically, the people they are slaughtering are.
2). The analogy from US colonization seems in part apt and in part off target. It's apt because we attempted in general -- there are a few exceptions -- to exterminate the indigenous inhabitants. This seems an exact parallel to the Zionist invaders. Native Jewish never attacked -- at least in my historical memory -- the Ottomans and later Islamic inhabitants. Nor did the the Ottomans or later Islamic governments molest the Jews. It was the invading European Zionists who began the slaughter from day one in 1948, n'est pas?
All of this is so horrible and tragic. Russian attacking Ukraine, Israel destroying Palestinians. I agree that removing the rights of the Palestinian people, taking their land for the Jewish people was wrong. It was a blunder! They should have been able to go back to their homes where they started. The Germans should have returned all their spoils of war and made reparations for the damage they caused. They could never replace the lives they murdered. The Israelis now behaving like everyone they hate. For my part, I'm working and taking care of my life, I don't have time to put into studying all the material on WWII and the horrible wars that are perpetrated on societies mostly by fucked up men wanting more power. If I have time to study at all, it will be focusing on subjects that don't tear my peace of mind and break my heart. People can be so loving and so cruel and monstrous.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Rose. They are appreciated. BTW, there are several ( I think ) credible posts on this blog that raise questsions about the somewhat simple narrative of "Russia attacked Ukraine." Granted, the origins trace back to 2014 .... and even earlier ... but as a taxpayer, I think it is well worth it to know how and why my taxes are used. Here's one example by one of the country's finest historians of Russan foreign affairs. THANKS again for reading and commenting.
‘THE H’ is absurd on its face, with 2 minutes thought. THINK people!
Proven:
NO ‘gas chambers’
Less than 300,000 dead in ALL camps combined, according to the Red Cross (dead, not murdered, while disease was rampant)
The Germans are going to transport people (who had declared war on them) to camps with swimming pools, theatre, etc etc to kill them? Why bother with the tranport? Etc etc etc
And no least: THE hollowcause?! Why THE, when millions have been killed in Vietnam, Indonesia, United States, Latin America, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, …
Appreciate your comment. Thanks. This makes me think of David Irving, a fine historian badly mistreated for pointing to many of the issues to which you refer. Appreciate your comment!
Irregardless of the historic account of the Nazi extermination camaign aka Holocaust, the current Gaza massacre and Lebanon device explosions are certain to rise to the unenforced standard for crimes against humanity and genocide.
I’ve not yet read the Finklestein observance, and when I do, I’m sure it will not make a damn bit of difference to the ‘world order’ or my opinion that total lawlessness is the actual reigning world order. I revert to my roots in rebellion.
Want to thank the people commenting on this issue. I was talking to someone about this yesterday and forgot to mention in this post that I remember DISTINCTLY that as a young man, it was constantly bandied about that "6 JEW MILLION DIED IN AUSCHWITZ !!" Then the actual records from Auschwitz were finally released from the Russian archives and suddenly the narrative turned into "6 Million died in the concentrations camps" of Germany. The changed narrative was noted by a few, but never really reached the front page or the mainstream commentariat. it's not allowed.
Those of Jewish identify who decided to leave Europe after the Second World War held their own views about who within the European Jewish communities were the elite and who were not. They obviously looked upon the Jews of Palestine as less than capable of leadership in the new state of Israel. As you correctly note, the elites coming from Europe came with determination to establish a Jewish-only nation-state. The victory in 1967 both provided the rationale and the opportunity to expand the border and push the Arab people out. The conflict began with the Balfour Declaration, and every action thereafter by the British set the stage for what has occurred.
My view is that no group of people has any greater claim to any part of the planet than any other group. This moral position is in direct conflict with how the world has been carved up into nation-states claiming sovereign control and arming to defend what they have taken and often using force to take more. In this sense, the European Zionists are no different than any other tribal group. One might have thought they would have a greater respect for human rights because of what happened to so many of their family members during the Second World War. That is too much to expect from people who believe they have some special claim to some part of the planet and who look upon others occupying that territory as usurpers and even uncivilized, thus not protected by any universal moral law. It is up to the international community to find the moral courage to bring the Israeli political and military leadership to trial for their crimes committed against humanity. The same issues face the international community all around the globe. Problem is, there are very few governments who can legitimately claim the high moral ground. The U.S. has its own unresolved history of crimes against humanity.
History of messy. Within tribes there have almost always arisen rival clans vying for leadership. When tribal groups settle in one place, control over land becomes an important component of power within the tribe. Hierarchy eventually appears, and with hierarchy claims by the elite to a larger and larger share of what is produced. The result is an economy of scarcity, and scarcity within the group leads to efforts to take what is needed and desired from others. The people whose heritage goes back to the ancient tribes of Israel are subject to the same internal socio-political dynamics. And, yes, your observation about Jewish people coming from Europe (where they had generations of exposure to embrace the aggressive cultures of European tribes is valid. I have many "Jewish" friends. Some are not particularly political, as is the case with most Americans. Others are very committed to either a progressive, conservative or libertarian ideology. The same can be said for members of my own family. And, my father was something of a racist, although he was quiet about his racial views.
"The people whose heritage goes back to the ancient tribes of Israel are subject to the same internal socio-political dynamics." Who are you talking about here specifically, Ed? Because if you're talking about Ashkenazi Jews, that "heritage going back to the ancient tribes of Israel" is at least arguably mythological. These people are Polish in many if not most cases. Wouldn't they more properly be returning to their "homeland" in Poland?. Or are you justifying their biblical claims based on the deed of ownership by "Jahweh?" Couldn't I just as easily say that "Yahweh" or "Ooga-booga" or "the flying spaghetti monster" gave me Palm Springs, go shoot everyone and welcome all who acknowledge "yahweh" or whomever? Could be just me, but your rationale seems a bit opaqiue.
In the case of Israel, my position is I think crystal clear. Europeanized Zionist Jewry are occupiers. They committed both individual and mass murder and expropriation in order to seize the land inside the 1967 borders of "Israel," created a language, and established an occupation of the remaining land of Palestine while creating a second class citizenship ship of indigenous Arabs (whether Christian or Muslim) who remained within the newly created borders. [ see Folke Bernadotte, King David Hotel Bombing, c. 1948 Nakba etc) Now they are taking the REST of the biblical deeded land. You do realize that the West bank is being overrun by Zionist settlers aided by the IDF, right? Am I mistaken in any of this?
Those of Jewish identify who decided to leave Europe after the Second World War held their own views about who within the European Jewish communities were the elite and who were not. They obviously looked upon the Jews of Palestine as less than capable of leadership in the new state of Israel. As you correctly note, the elites coming from Europe came with determination to establish a Jewish-only nation-state. The victory in 1967 both provided the rationale and the opportunity to expand the border and push the Arab people out. The conflict began with the Balfour Declaration, and every action thereafter by the British set the stage for what has occurred.
My view is that no group of people has any greater claim to any part of the planet than any other group. This moral position is in direct conflict with how the world has been carved up into nation-states claiming sovereign control and arming to defend what they have taken and often using force to take more. In this sense, the European Zionists are no different than any other tribal group. One might have thought they would have a greater respect for human rights because of what happened to so many of their family members during the Second World War. That is too much to expect from people who believe they have some special claim to some part of the planet and who look upon others occupying that territory as usurpers and even uncivilized, thus not protected by any universal moral law. It is up to the international community to find the moral courage to bring the Israeli political and military leadership to trial for their crimes committed against humanity. The same issues face the international community all around the globe. Problem is, there are very few governments who can legitimately claim the high moral ground. The U.S. has its own unresolved history of crimes against humanity.
Over a life-long study of and writing about human history I came to the conclusion that we humans remain instinctively tribal in our primary associations. Migration generates conflict but a degree of assimilation (provided the migrating group abandons most of its own cultural norms in favor of the norms of the majority tribe). The experience of many minority groups who come into another tribal group and whose children are immersed into the majority culture reveals there is a lingering distrust or worse that continues on thru generations, even when there is inter-marriage. Remember that in the United States, the White tribe categorized any person with even a very small percentage of Black ancestry as Black. Very, very slowly, those Blacks who embrace White cultural norms gained acceptance into the White tribe, remembering that it also took generations before Whites who came to the United States from Ireland (and who practiced Catholicism) or from countries where English was not their spoken language experienced and still experience a degree of ethnic isolation from "the mainstream culture." The historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. wrote about this issue, concerned that the pluralism he viewed as constructive was being replaced by a destructive trend toward multiculturalism.
The above is just a prelude to the observation that wherever tribes are competing for sovereignty over the same territory and resources, the competition will inevitably involve unrelenting violence. Remember what happened after Tito's regime fell and the ethnic groups were no longer constrained by the police powers of state socialism. All around globe these tribal conflicts have been ongoing for centuries. The difference today is the expanded capacity to kill large numbers of people from a distance.
As I write this, I wonder how much time we have before the regional wars now being fought explode into global war.
Thanks for the comment as always, Ed. Not sure:
1). I follow your line of thought. Are you saying that "tribes fight and it might turn into world conflagration?" If so, I agree on the conflagration part but I don't see Zionism as tribal. MOST Israeli are European and have no (or miniscule) biological connection to the indigenous people of the region. That's because Judaism is neither a race nor an ethnicity. Neither Bibi Netanyahu nor any of his cabinet are Semites. Ironically, the people they are slaughtering are.
2). The analogy from US colonization seems in part apt and in part off target. It's apt because we attempted in general -- there are a few exceptions -- to exterminate the indigenous inhabitants. This seems an exact parallel to the Zionist invaders. Native Jewish never attacked -- at least in my historical memory -- the Ottomans and later Islamic inhabitants. Nor did the the Ottomans or later Islamic governments molest the Jews. It was the invading European Zionists who began the slaughter from day one in 1948, n'est pas?
All of this is so horrible and tragic. Russian attacking Ukraine, Israel destroying Palestinians. I agree that removing the rights of the Palestinian people, taking their land for the Jewish people was wrong. It was a blunder! They should have been able to go back to their homes where they started. The Germans should have returned all their spoils of war and made reparations for the damage they caused. They could never replace the lives they murdered. The Israelis now behaving like everyone they hate. For my part, I'm working and taking care of my life, I don't have time to put into studying all the material on WWII and the horrible wars that are perpetrated on societies mostly by fucked up men wanting more power. If I have time to study at all, it will be focusing on subjects that don't tear my peace of mind and break my heart. People can be so loving and so cruel and monstrous.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Rose. They are appreciated. BTW, there are several ( I think ) credible posts on this blog that raise questsions about the somewhat simple narrative of "Russia attacked Ukraine." Granted, the origins trace back to 2014 .... and even earlier ... but as a taxpayer, I think it is well worth it to know how and why my taxes are used. Here's one example by one of the country's finest historians of Russan foreign affairs. THANKS again for reading and commenting.
https://kennethburchell.substack.com/p/ukraine-history-and-causes
Thank you Ken. I'll watch the video.
‘THE H’ is absurd on its face, with 2 minutes thought. THINK people!
Proven:
NO ‘gas chambers’
Less than 300,000 dead in ALL camps combined, according to the Red Cross (dead, not murdered, while disease was rampant)
The Germans are going to transport people (who had declared war on them) to camps with swimming pools, theatre, etc etc to kill them? Why bother with the tranport? Etc etc etc
And no least: THE hollowcause?! Why THE, when millions have been killed in Vietnam, Indonesia, United States, Latin America, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, …
THINK. RESEARCH
Appreciate your comment. Thanks. This makes me think of David Irving, a fine historian badly mistreated for pointing to many of the issues to which you refer. Appreciate your comment!
I thank YOU❣️
http://rule19.org/Brainfood/the-holocause.htm
Historic account?!🙄 WHAT ‘historic’ account? Re-examine everything the zios taught you. EVERYTHING!
http://rule19.org/Brainfood/the-holocause.htm
Irregardless of the historic account of the Nazi extermination camaign aka Holocaust, the current Gaza massacre and Lebanon device explosions are certain to rise to the unenforced standard for crimes against humanity and genocide.
I’ve not yet read the Finklestein observance, and when I do, I’m sure it will not make a damn bit of difference to the ‘world order’ or my opinion that total lawlessness is the actual reigning world order. I revert to my roots in rebellion.
Tear the house down
http://rule19.org/Brainfood/Benjamin-Freedman.htm
Thanks for the comment and link History.
Share a good many of your feelings in the matters at hand. Thanks for the comment.
Want to thank the people commenting on this issue. I was talking to someone about this yesterday and forgot to mention in this post that I remember DISTINCTLY that as a young man, it was constantly bandied about that "6 JEW MILLION DIED IN AUSCHWITZ !!" Then the actual records from Auschwitz were finally released from the Russian archives and suddenly the narrative turned into "6 Million died in the concentrations camps" of Germany. The changed narrative was noted by a few, but never really reached the front page or the mainstream commentariat. it's not allowed.
Those of Jewish identify who decided to leave Europe after the Second World War held their own views about who within the European Jewish communities were the elite and who were not. They obviously looked upon the Jews of Palestine as less than capable of leadership in the new state of Israel. As you correctly note, the elites coming from Europe came with determination to establish a Jewish-only nation-state. The victory in 1967 both provided the rationale and the opportunity to expand the border and push the Arab people out. The conflict began with the Balfour Declaration, and every action thereafter by the British set the stage for what has occurred.
My view is that no group of people has any greater claim to any part of the planet than any other group. This moral position is in direct conflict with how the world has been carved up into nation-states claiming sovereign control and arming to defend what they have taken and often using force to take more. In this sense, the European Zionists are no different than any other tribal group. One might have thought they would have a greater respect for human rights because of what happened to so many of their family members during the Second World War. That is too much to expect from people who believe they have some special claim to some part of the planet and who look upon others occupying that territory as usurpers and even uncivilized, thus not protected by any universal moral law. It is up to the international community to find the moral courage to bring the Israeli political and military leadership to trial for their crimes committed against humanity. The same issues face the international community all around the globe. Problem is, there are very few governments who can legitimately claim the high moral ground. The U.S. has its own unresolved history of crimes against humanity.